E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:57 am

Last but not least was installation of the Isspro pyrometer. I had remembered the dual chrome ones on Steve S’s 359 and they were located in the package tray right below the headliner. So I decided to mount ours in the same place. I started with an Isspro R602-10...

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Since they don’t make ones this size with chrome bezels anymore, I wound up buying a stainless washer from McMaster and turning it in the lathe to fit over the gauge...

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And then I drilled the mounting holes...

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Then I removed the header panel I made, drilled the 2 3/4" mounting hole and polished the bezel and the button head screws...

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And here is the finished product...

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More to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:18 am

The next day we took the truck for a test ride and everything worked well. The noise in the cab was greatly reduced at cruising speeds and we were building between 12 and 13 psi of boost total. The following day we had our ATCA club meeting and we decided to take the truck. For our May meeting Dave & Kevin Lewis host a picnic at their shop before the meeting and we had a nice turn out of trucks...

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The next day after our trip to Scranton with the truck I noticed a lot of oil under the truck. At first I thought I was pushing oil out of the air box inspection covers so I would up replacing the gaskets on all 8 of those.

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While I was under the truck I also decided to remove the breather just above the starter. The starter was fairly wet and sure enough oil was leaking from the bottom of the breather. It looks like I damaged the gasket when I inspected it last summer...

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So made a new gasket for the breather and reinstalled it. I wound up dropping the starter to make life easier but quickly remembered how heavy it was!!!

Now that things were wrapped up with the turbo I decided to replace the injectors. I had a rebuilt set of N70’s to replace the N65’s. One of the things I needed to confirm was what height to set the injectors at, either 1.460” or 1.484”. The Detroit book says 1.460" for N70's Turbo with standard timing and 1.484" for N70's Non-turbo with advanced timing. I decided to set them at 1.460” and the following weekend we swapped the injectors and re-ran the rack...

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:38 am

Well I might as well share the good with the bad...

About a week after we installed the new injectors I decided to take my son to his Karate class with the truck. It’s only about 20 miles and about halfway into our trip the turbo failed. I heard a ‘thud’, then noticed the boost pressure was 0 and started pouring smoke out of the exhaust. I had to get the truck towed home, no fun...

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After disassembling the turbo I discovered the shaft was bent and the bearing was wiped out. My best guess is that the nut on the intake side was not torqued correctly because I could spin it off with my fingers. But that’s just a guess, it could have come loose during the abrupt ‘stop’. While waiting for the roll back, I also noticed a ton of oil dripping under the truck. It turns out I was pushing oil right through the breather on the side of the block. After some further discussion I decided to plug that breather since I had the one on the governor housing and the large breather on the valve cover. Keep in mind the original valve cover did not have a breather...

So after changing the oil and installing another turbo, I went for another short ride up towards my Brothers house. This time I pushed over 2 gallons of oil out of the tube on the governor housing. My thoughts were at that time was that the oil was not returning to oil pan, and after looking through the Detroit manual one of the causes could be excessive crankcase pressure. The manual lists several causes, including exhaust back pressure, a bad blower gasket, bad blower seals or worn/tired rings.

I figured it couldn’t be exhaust back pressure since I had 5” from front to back, I was pretty certain the blower gasket was ok, it couldn’t be the blower since we had it rebuilt with high pressure seals, so I must be the rings??? So I decided to check the crankcase pressure. This is measured in “inches of water column” so with a piece of plywood, 10’ of 1/4" clear tubing and half a yard stick, I made my own manometer.

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I also installed a pressure gauge on the rear air box drain T fitting so I could understand what the total air box pressure was (turbo plus blower.) After running a quick test, I wound up with the following numbers...

1200 rpm 2.25" of water 6 psi air box pressure (No value in manual)

1500 rpm 3.25" of water 10 psi air box pressure (Manual calls for .7")

1800 rpm 4.75" of water 12 psi air box pressure (Manual calls for 1.3")

2000 rpm 7.50" of water 15 psi air box pressure (Manual calls for 1.8")

2100 rpm 8.25" of water 16 psi air box pressure (Manual calls for 2.0")

More than likely my turbo pressure is getting past the oil rings and creating the pressure in my crankcase. So much that it is preventing the oil from draining back down into the pan.

As a last ditch effort, I removed a 3/4" npt plug in the air inlet and installed a nipple with a 1” hose to try to reduce the overall boost of the turbo. But we still had 8 psi of boost vs. 13 psi so that didn’t work...

With less than a week and a half left before the show in Macungie, we made an executive decision to remove the turbo and put things back the way they were. This was fairly straight forward, all I had to do was adapt the factory 4” exhaust to the new 5” resonator. I also installed a bung in the factory 4” piece so that I could reconnect the pyrometer. 2 nights later we had it running and decided to re-run the crankcase pressure test...

1200 rpm 0" of water 3 psi air box pressure

1500 rpm 0" of water 4 psi air box pressure

1800 rpm 0.50" of water 5 psi air box pressure

2000 rpm 0.625" of water 5 psi air box pressure

2100 rpm 1.50" of water 5 psi air box pressure

So these numbers are closer to the factory specs so at least we can get through the summer with it. Keep in mind that the crankcase pressure went back to normal after the turbo was removed so it ruled out being an issue with the blower, or defective air compressor, etc.

Right now our intention is to inframe the motor this fall after show season is over. Maybe I should retitle this post to “671 to 671T to 671”?????

More importantly, we were able to take the truck to Macungie!!!

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And this is what truck shows are all about... Visiting with everybody!!!

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby STRETCH » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:57 pm

Tom,
Sorry to hear of your misfortune after all the work and effort put forth.

Never fun to come home via the hook..... :( :(

Bright side...lots of documentation on what you did, and what you tested.
We can't thank you enough for sharing the info!

Hope to see you folks soon!

What is the status on the other engine project??

Stretch 8)
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby STRETCH » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:58 am

Tom,

Probably by now some one may have told you to check the pistons.

I just happened to be talking to a couple of veteran "old school" detroit guys here at our shop.

They know i have a couple of 671"s and bust on me regular about my progress (we won't go there..) any way I asked about your change over to turbo. They both said that the turbocharged 671 had a different crown on the piston, thus changing the compression ratio.
Don't have anything in print...but it may be something to look into.

Hope to see you folks soon!

Stretch 8)
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:01 am

Hi Stretch...

You're correct, the pistons are different. The non turbo piston give a compression ration of 18.7:1 and turbo pistons are 17.0:1. I talked to handful of guys that put turbo on natural motors without issues, especially since they were hobby trucks and not worked everyday.

I am pretty certain my rings are tired and letting the pressure in the air box go into the crankcase. We are going to do something this fall, either an in frame of the original motor with the correct turbo parts or rebuild another blow. I would like to find an aftercooled silver series block to rebuild.

Without the turbo and just the resonator, the truck is crazy loud :)

As for the 155W project, stay tuned for an update!

Tom
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Mike Pacitto » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:17 am

Yes, but its is a great crazy loud. I think that the 6-71 is the best sounding engine ever made.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Huskiedrive2 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:09 pm

Don't forget your little 6V-53 Mike. They have a cool sound all their own and red line is 2800!!!
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri May 17, 2019 3:56 pm

Remember when I upgraded the 671N to a 671T and then back to a 671N? Well now it’s time to go from a 671N to a 671TAB. Almost 3 years later...

After we had all the issues with adding the turbo to the 671 in my Dad’s 361 I decided to remove it and put everything back the way it was. As of right now my best guess is that the rings are just tired and I was pushing boost into the crankcase which was making a mess out of everything. I was also getting a of oil through the slobber tubes (specifically the rear one) and a lot of oil in the exhaust stacks.

On a side note, adding a turbo to a non-turbo 671 seems to be a popular question on FB and half the people say it will work fine (especially for a hobby truck) and other people will tell you it can’t be done. I do know Detroit used different pistons for turbos along with lower compression, etc.

At that time I had discussed with my Dad rebuilding the original engine (in frame) or possibly finding a later block that was aftercooled. I know he liked the idea of keeping a 671 in the truck and to be honest I did too. Of course I could have repowered it with a Cummins, or an 871, etc, but I still liked the idea of a 671. I did a lot of research on these motors and found out that in the mid 80’s they had 320HP truck versions and marine versions went all the way to 485HP (of course with unlimited cooling...)

I had pretty much made my mind up that I wanted to find a mid 80’s 671 that was rated at 320HP, which had a turbo and was aftercooled along with a bypass blower. This would have the TAB designation. T = Turbo, A = Aftercooled and B = Byplass blower. To this made the most sense since I could still use my existing trans, radiator, etc, and just replace the motor.

So I decided to start looking for a decent core to rebuild. After searching online I found a 671 that came out of a fire truck, model 1067-8640. It was located in Camerota’s in Connecticut, but when I called, it turns out they had sent it to auction in Ohio...

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You were able to bid online but it was in a month and a half. So I threw in an opening bid of $200 and waited to for a month and a half. On the day of the auction, it wouldn’t let me bid any higher for some reason and it sold for $250!!! Still thinking I may have some chance of getting this motor, I called the auction house and they gave me the contact info for the scrap yard in Kalamazoo Michigan that bought it. I was able to get in touch with that guy and he wanted $850 for it plus freight. That’s still a decent number for it but I decided against it.

In the meantime I had been talking to the folks at Leid Diesel in Newville, PA, just south of Carlisle. They had the right core in stock and were interested in taking in the original motor as a core as well. So I made the decision to have them build the motor. This was in late December of last year. My plan was to have them build the motor and have it ready to go by the time I was able to bring my Dad’s truck home from the museum.

When I talked to Leid I explained that I wanted to have the motor test run and broken in prior to me getting it. I realize it’s not practical for me to break it in bobtailing with no weight. So at that time I decided to start collecting some parts I needed to complete the motor. The first thing I located was a complete set of Jacobs Engine brakes from a guy in Arkansas that I found on FB. His number was more than fair and I was able to buy (2) masters, (4) slaves, a set of bridges and a set of O ring fuel lines.

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I also located an updated buffer switch in eBay and a complete rebuild kit for a 6V71 (which is the same as the 671)...

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I took everything apart and cleaned it in the parts tank and started laying everything out...

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After everything was cleaned I started reassembling everything...

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And shortly thereafter I wound up with this...

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri May 17, 2019 3:57 pm

The next big step was to find a tall aluminum valve cover. As most of you know these are becoming fairly hard to find and expensive. I called the guy in Lancaster where I bought my original one from and after some searching he called me back and said he couldn’t find one. A week later his son called me and said he had one and a week after that UPS delivered it to my house...

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Ironically this cover came off of the same engine model I wanted my new one based on, 1067-8640...

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My best guess is that this came off of a motor in an International since it was painted red.

More to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri May 17, 2019 3:58 pm

Although it’s a little too long, this spent some time in the parts washer...

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And then came the tedious process of stripping the paint and polishing it. I started with aircraft paint stripper...

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And then sanding with 80 grit, followed by 180, 220, and then 400...

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Finally I used a 6” buffing wheel with some compound. I came out pretty good and it looks a lot better than the picture reflects...

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Well that’s it for now!!!
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Watchmaker » Sun May 19, 2019 6:29 pm

Tom great post as always hope to see it in August!!
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Wed May 22, 2019 2:47 pm

Thanks Jim!!!

I was able to hand deliver the Jake brake parts to Leid’s shop in Newville just before Christmas. I had a last minute meeting scheduled in Harrisburg so once I was wrapped up with that I headed to their shop. I reviewed all the specs for the motor I wanted built and discussed a handful of options. Like I mentioned earlier, my intent was to build a 320HP mid 80’s silver series. I did a lot of searching for info on these later silver series motors and really didn’t find much on the 671. I finally stumbled on this add on FB...

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While at Leid I discussed wanting to reusing all of my original mounting brackets, pulleys, etc, to keep everything as original looking as possible. They needed the crank pulley since they didn’t have one in stock, so Joe D was able to help me out with that. I had built a puller to remove the pulley on the original engine so I dug that out and used it. I do remember it starting to bend removing the original pulley but this time the pulley came right off with only a little effort. I also grabbed the upper pulley also.

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Once I had all the parts I needed, I sandblasted everything, including the pulleys, valve cover fill and valve cover bolts...

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Then I had the guy in Newton Ransom powder coat all the parts for me...

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Once everything was done, I boxed up the valve cover and the lower pulley and had then UPS’d to Leid. I used an extra large box with tons of padding to protect the valve cover from any shipping damage. Fortunately everything arrived there ok. It was working paying the extra shipping cost for the large box and additional insurance...

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By late February I got the call the engine was dyno’d, broken in and ready to be picked up. At that time I gathered up all the previous turbo pieces I had collected and used on the original motor. This included (2) air inlets, (2) exhaust manifolds, (1) TV6141 turbo with about 30 miles on it, (1) new in the box TV6141 turbo and (1) T18A40 turbo core.

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Wed May 22, 2019 2:48 pm

I sent pics of everything to Leid and they were interested in everything so I loaded it up in the truck and headed south. Keep in mind these were different turbo’s that was the new motor had so I really couldn’t use them...

A few hours later I had it loaded up and was ready to head home...

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And unloaded it...

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Once I had it in the garage I started taking a hard look at everything and realized I was not going to be able to use the factory alternator bracket that Brockway used. The factory location is on the passenger side but it would wind up hitting the air intake. The new motor has a bypass blower which used a different style air intake. It swoops forward more than the ones I had used in the past. While surfing FB on night, I saw a post of a guy selling a 1984 White / Volvo with a 671T. From the pics of the motor it looked it had a alternator bracket on the driver side that would work and clear the bottom of the air compressor...

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It turns out the bracket is not a factory Detroit part but rather a part made by White Motor Trucks. I did a quick search online but was unable to find anything and then by chance I was talking to Paul Polcha and he mentioned he had one from the fire truck 671 he bought. He held onto it for a possible AC upgrade in the future and let me borrow it. Here it is with the original Leece Neville alternator, next to a spare Delco 21SI I had...

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And here are the parts after everything was taken apart...

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And here is a test fit on the new motor. The belt lined up perfectly with the original crank pulley...

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Wed May 22, 2019 2:49 pm

At this point I was able to determine the actual White Motor Trucks part numbers, 80204-0008 for the main bracket and 80206-0009 for the adjustment bracket. I had plans of making my own using Paul’s for reference, but after placing a wanted add on the FB Detroit Diesel Enthusiasts group, I was able to locate one in California. But I quickly discovered that the lower mounting holes, where the 6” long 1/2” bolt goes through, were wore out and oblong. I’m guessing the alternator was loose for quite some time...

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Since the holes were so oblong, there would be no way you could straighten them out with a drill bit. So I wound up using an 11/16” end mill to clean the holes up. I had to make a jig to hole the piece on the mill table also (which was left over from some other project...)

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The face of the bracket was also wore so I cleaned that up with a 3/4" end mill. I took just enough off that an SAE washer would make up the difference...

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Once I was done milling the holes, I turned a few 11/16” steel bushings to fit in the holes...

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The bushings I made were only 3/8” ID, so after I installed them, I used a 10” 1/2" drill bit to drill straight through them. I scored this bit from the flea market at Macungie a few years back!!!

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The bracket from California also came with an adjustment arm that was too long, but I knew that when I bought it...

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Although the adjustment slot was a little longer, I was still able to cut it to the right length and have the curvature of the bracket line up where it needed to be...

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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Wed May 22, 2019 2:50 pm

The last issue I needed to tackle with this was to make a new bracket to relocate the fuel filter bracket. On the original motor, I made a bracket to push the filters about 3/4" towards the rear of the motor. I did this because the check valve was hitting the air compressor bracket and someone had just bent the bracket back to make it clear. Since I didn’t have the truck at home (it was still in the museum), I used my old pics for reference. I also borrowed another fuel filter bracket from Joe D for reference. With these parts in hand I was able to make a new bracket that would mount over the new alternator bracket and still clear the air compressor bracket...

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An upcoming pic will help explain why I had to make that bracket. After the bracket was done I sandblasted everything...

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As most of you know my Dad’s truck had spent the past year in the Brockway museum. For the change of the display Paul Polizzi had called me to let me know it was scheduled for April 27. I had kept an eye on the weather forecast all week and sure enough by midweek they were calling for rain!!! And then it changed to snow!!! I decided to make the trip to Cortland that Saturday morning and pull the truck out so the get the other trucks switched around. And just like the weatherman said, it snowed!!!

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Funny thing is that after sitting for a full year they motor started within half a revolution. Maybe it ‘knew’ something was up!!! After most of the trucks were switched around they let me back the truck back into the museum close to the garage door. I could leave it there until the weather turned. Robin Quail then took this great photo!!!

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With the exception of Monday, it was supposed to rain the upcoming week. Although the museum is closed on Monday’s, they made arrangements for me to pick the truck up. My brother Jason and I left at 6:30 and were there by 8:30. At that point we pulled the truck out and started heading south...

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I drove the truck to work in Clarks Summit and then took it home at the end of the day...

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The following day Jason asked me if I wore ear plugs in the truck on the way home :)

That’s it for now!
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby stubnosebrock » Thu May 23, 2019 2:05 pm

How'd she do on the dyno?
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Thu May 23, 2019 8:07 pm

Hey Brandon...

It made 345 HP and 895 ftlbs of torque. A slight improvement over the 238.

Tom
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby stubnosebrock » Fri May 24, 2019 6:48 am

Awesome! that's gonna feel much better
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Tue May 28, 2019 12:04 pm

Once the truck was back in my garage I took a handful of reference pics and started draining the radiator...

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I needed some help to remove the hood, fenders and bumper so I called my brother Jason, my friend Mike and his Dad Mr. Brown (who usually takes care of getting us coffee...) The hood alone is a 3 man job, 1 guy in the middle to keep it supported and 1 guy on each side. I also covered the grill shell with a number of towels to keep it from getting scratched...

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Once the front end was off we started disassembling everything in order to pull the motor...

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I was also able to borrow a transmission jack from a friend of mine who is restoring an R model. This was a huge help since it had side to side adjustments for angle mounted transmissions and a hand wheel adjustment for front to back. Once the driveshaft was out and the transmission was slid back, we set the fork lift up in order to pull the motor...

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Of all things, the bellhousing motor mount bolt on the passenger side would not come out. Believe it or not, the bellhousing bolts, 3/4" x 7” long bolts, were the only 2 bolts I reused on the whole truck. I had sandblasted and painted them, but the passenger side one was froze in the steel bushing that slips up into the poly urethane motor mount. I ran out of time that Saturday night so had to regroup the next morning. Even with a good pair of vicegrips on the bushing, the bolt wouldn’t turn. Because of the way the bellhousing is situated, there is no way to get a punch in there to hammer it out. So I wound up cutting it off with a sawzall. A half hour and 3 blades later I was finally able to get it out...

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For some reason the bolt was seized to the bushing. I had put a skim coat of grease on it when I reassembled it but I guess it wasn’t enough. Finally we were able to pull the old motor out...

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More to follow...
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