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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:27 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Scranton, PA
Painted yesterday...
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Dropped it in today...
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This is the point I should have been at a month ago when I lifted it off the pallet.


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Paul Polcha
Project E761L, Driveline Assembly in Progress!
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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:49 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Horseheads NY
Looks great Paul! Too bad about the radiator shop screwing you. Take the bucket of rust and crud you swept up and heave it thru his office window! Leave all the radiator mounts loose for now. When you go to install the hood you will be moving everything.


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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:27 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Scranton, PA
Thanks Stan! Nothing surprises me today, especially in the automotive industry. Every time you think you've seen it all....... enough said!

I did call the rad shop and sent him a link to the message board. The owner called me back in about 10 minutes and tried to explain the process. I told him they received a list of exactly what I wanted done, and only one item made the cut (delete pressure relief and install new neck with pressure cap). He was going to pull the job card to see who worked on it then get back to me "tomorrow". That was nearly 2 weeks ago (insert Final Jeopardy jingle here).

Anyway, after scoring a thermal fan clutch, shutter removal, a few minor alterations and repairs to the shroud... It all fit!
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That's all for now.

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Paul Polcha
Project E761L, Driveline Assembly in Progress!


Last edited by Scranton 761 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 52
Looks very nice. I like your fan shroud. That should definitely get the cooling job done.


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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:16 pm
Posts: 1
Good afternoon Paul,

I am responding to your letter which we received on January 29, 2017. Last week, John mailed a letter to you in response. In your letter, you threatened to add our invoice in addition to the pictures you have already posted on the Brockway website, which you stated that over 6,100 people have looked at so far. Please know that I will not engage any further on this site, although I felt it necessary to support our employees as well as see that your concerns were answered. It is not in my nature, nor will I waste time and engage in finger pointing. With that said, I do owe you and your audience a response. In John’s letter to you, he did validate all that created a $250 labor charge as well as recommending against repairing the old radiator. We did follow your instructions and noted on the invoice that there was no guarantee and that the radiator was old and weak. I find it disheartening that we are discussing an invoice, which was dated September 24, 2013. We cannot be accountable for the condition of a product that was stowed for nearly three years before use.

Respectfully,

Al Cicioni

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February 3, 2017

Paul,

In response to your letter, I’d like to explain our process.

Based on my 32 years of experience repairing radiators, jobs like the one we did for you fail 90% of the time when pulled apart. The process of removing the top tank, rod cleaning, disassembling, cleaning the bottom end, prepping parts, regasketing, removing all dirt, reassembling and then testing tends to create leaks. Dirt is often the only thing that keeps older radiators like the one you sent us from leaking.

The above process would have taken at least five hours at a labor cost of no less than $500. We still could not have guaranteed the job. There would have been a 90% chance that your radiator would not have survived. As I explained when we took the job in, a new core would have been the best solution for a show truck that would see plenty of highway miles.

You decided to not buy the core and it goes against our better judgement to perform the five steps you suggested in your letter. Therefore, I cleaned and power flushed the radiator, installed new filler neck, tested, painted and shipped it back to you (49 miles each way). Again, 90% of jobs like yours fail within three months of heavy usage. Just because we power flush a radiator does not mean that all of the dirt will be removed in all areas.

In closing, we put “NO GUARANTEE!!! RAD OLD & WEAK” on your invoice for the reasons above. To get a radiator like the one you sent us up to show truck standards, you are looking at least $1,200 for a new core. If your radiator is not leaking now, there’s a 90% chance it will be once it starts getting hot out.

If you decide to get a new core down the road, we can credit the labor from invoice 16536 as a one-time courtesy.

Regards,


John


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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:27 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Scranton, PA
radiatorguy,

I also do not have time to waste on unnecessary banter. I am now forced to respond because you chose to air this in a public forum rather than responding directly to me on August 17, 2016 as you said you were going to.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible and keep my responses to the inaccuracies and "alternative facts" in your response.

My basic instructions for the radiator in question were as follows:
1. Remove and clean tanks
2. Clean and rod out core
3. Re-gasket tanks and flanges
4. Delete pressure relief and install new neck with pressure cap. (The only item done as per my orders)
5. Pressure test (Again I will state as I have multiple times, if this is going to fail I need to know now... not on the way to a show.)

Inaccuracies and "alternative facts" listed below:

1. "We did follow your instructions"

If my instructions were followed, there would be no issue today. You chose to "power flush" the radiator, which I could have done in my own shop. I don't remember seeing that on my list of "followed instructions". The radiator was never disassembled, tanks were never cleaned, core never rodded out, no regasketing of tanks, and no pressure test. I never asked for a price, I never asked for a deal, I never asked for a warranty on a 37 year old radiator. I asked for it to be done correctly. Had the core failed after cleaning and pressure testing, all responsibility would be on me. Had I ever been given a price on a core that failed pressure testing, I would have said "do it." The core was obviously never inspected by anyone in the shop because it is nearly impossible to see the tubes due to the baffling in the upper tank that is used on a Detroit Diesel.

2. "The above process would have taken at least five hours labor at the labor cost of no less than $500.00"

Again, I never asked for a price on the job, nor did I ask for a deal. I asked for the radiator to be cleaned and ready to install when the chassis was ready for it.

3. "As I explained when we took the job in, a new core would have been the best solution…"

I have no idea where this came from. "A new core" was never, ever mentioned! I don't remember who I talked to initially, but the first call I made to your facility was to ask if you were open on Saturday so I could drop off a radiator for service. All my other dealings were with Al's son. I don't remember his name but he was a very nice young guy. We talked for quite a while about his pressure washing end of the business. He is the one who picked it up and dropped it off. He did all the explanation as to what was done on the radiator. He told me "it's been a long time since we saw a Brockway radiator in the shop, Al worked on this one himself."

4. "You decided not to buy the core"

Again, I have no idea where this came from. I was never told the core was bad and needed replacement. I am not exactly sure time wise, but I received a phone call after approximately one week to say the radiator was ready. I was told upon delivery that the radiator flow tested just fine, and Al said it's good to go just the way it is with a #7 cap.

5. "Shipped it back to you 49 miles each way"

Again, first call I made to your facility was that I would like to drop off a radiator on Saturday. The response I received was, "we are in Scranton multiple times per week, we'd be happy to pick it up and drop it off for you". My response was, "great… do not make a special trip… It's a long term restoration… The radiator is going to sit on a pallet, under a blanket, in the corner of my shop, until the chassis is ready."

6. "I cleaned and power flushed the radiator," etc. "painted"

I had a discussion about this when I spoke to Al on August 16, 2016 after he saw the pictures of what I found inside of the radiator and upper tank. He did give me a thorough explanation about proper radiator reconditioning procedure, and stated this core was not a candidate for that. I asked him how he could possibly think that it's OK to leave this amount of rust, dirt, and crud in any radiator.... Which would only sandblast the radiator from the inside out, besides destroying my new water pump seals. Without a response he went on to say how they cleaned the radiator exterior before painting. I then asked him about the little piles of sand and paint I found on the pallet that fell out of the fins during the Hazleton to Scranton ride. I then said, "this was never cleaned... they painted over dirt." "When I lifted it off the pallet and I heard the crud rolling around inside the radiator tanks......." At that point Al said, "That's when you should have called me ... I'll pull the job card and get back to you tomorrow."

That was the last communication from radiatorguy, even though I followed up with an additional email and left messages requesting a return call (approximately once a month).... No response.

The only thing I asked for in August was an explanation as to where my $250.00 in labor was spent after I saw the condition of the radiator during my thorough inspection and cleaning.

What I asked for in January was an "urgent request for your attention to this matter so we may come to a fair, amicable agreement.... and get this matter settled." (Unauthorized power flushing I could have done myself, wasted paint applied over dirt, etc.)

I do accept full responsibility for not immediately checking to make sure the work I trusted someone to do, was done properly. That's all on me... Lesson learned.

Since radiatorguy with his 32 years of experience appears to be trying to educate an ASE Certified Master Auto Tech with 40 years of experience (in public forum), I have one final question... What is considered to be an acceptable volumetric measurement of loose dirt, scale, rust, and crud to be left in the cooling system of a newly restored antique truck? The 1/3 full coffee can you left in my radiator? I ask because I could not find any reference to this question in the Detroit Diesel service manual.

Paul



The pictures below show what happened to the newly applied paint when I brushed it with a dry 4" soft bristle house paint brush, then hit it with a gentle spray from a garden hose nozzle. Where did the paint go? Short answer... Paint doesn't stick to dirt! You can see the new bolts installed after my service, before I painted it.
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_________________
Paul Polcha
Project E761L, Driveline Assembly in Progress!


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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:49 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Horseheads NY
Very good response Paul, no mud slinging, just a factual, calm, come back. There is no doubt that you got screwed royally. It's shops like that, doing a flush and paint, then calling it rebuilt, that give repair shops of all kinds a bad name. Most customers don't understand their vehicles and believe the lies about the repairs they pay for. Our industry is ripe for dishonest shops to bilk the customers out of thousands of dollars of unneeded or poor quality "repairs." You and I are old school I guess, when your word was gold, a verbal agreement was a binding contract, and there was pride in doing the very best possible job for your customer, even if you ate some of the cost to make it perfect.
If that shop makes a habit of doing this to customers, sooner or later he'll wonder why their business is dropping off and they have no work.


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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:27 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Scranton, PA
Huskiedrive2 wrote:
You and I are old school I guess, when your word was gold, a verbal agreement was a binding contract, and there was pride in doing the very best possible job for your customer


Yes we are Stan!! With your permission I'd like to print this out with the author's name and put it on the wall in my waiting room as a daily reminder, and for all to see. It's one of the best business ethical one liners I have ever read.

To all my friends who had to endure this episode of "As The Dirty Radiator Turns", my sincere apologies. That's not what this message board is supposed to be about. I hope there was some information you found useful in the DIY portion, that's why it was put there.

On a positive note........

Short video of first fire up>>> https://youtu.be/vzoA3jLJk10

Thanks for posting this DzlNut!

Got about 2 hours of run time on it. All is well so far. No leaks, no smoke, no hunting idle, oil pressure great (acceptable at idle, 13psi hot). I'm going to move the gauge to the lower oil galley to see if there's an improvement (Thanks Stan!).

Hope to get moving on the rear brakes tomorrow.

That's all for now!

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Paul Polcha
Project E761L, Driveline Assembly in Progress!


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 Post subject: Re: E761L Progress... 1st Project
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:00 am
Posts: 781
Location: Lake Ariel, PA
Paul very interesting as Cicioni is one of the major radiator repair shops in our area.With your detailed pictures like they say one picture is worth 1000 words.


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