E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

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E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:20 pm

A while back we talked about putting a turbo on the 671 in my Dad’s 361. Of course this would add a few more horsepower which is nice but it would also trim some of the noise out of the exhaust. So a year or so ago I was able to score a complete set up from a local diesel shop. The guy had collected the parts for a drill rig (I believe...) The neighbors of the drill rig owner were complaining of the noise so they decided to put a turbo on it to quite it down. Well it turns out the drill rig owner retired before the turbo was installed so I was able to buy everything.

I wound up with a rebuilt TV6141 turbo, an exhaust manifold and an air intake. But when I got everything home I quickly realized it wouldn’t work with our set up. After some research I found up that the exhaust manifold and air intake were setup for a cab over Jimmy, like the one in this pic...

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These parts are for sale cheap by the way :)

Like anything else this was a learning experience for me start I starting doing more research and asking questions. I was discussing my situation one night at our local ATCA meeting and Kevin Lewis mentioned he knew where a 671 was complete with a turbo. Sure enough it was right in a junkyard in Scranton so a week later we caught up for breakfast on a Saturday morning and headed to the yard. And this is what we found there...

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With the exception of some previous damage to the air inlet it was complete and the yard was willing to sell just the exhaust manifold and air inlet. So we removed all of the pieces and since the motor was still in a frame, we slid the old turbo under the oil pan.

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Fast forward to last summer... I was having some issues with erratic oil pressure and decided to remove the oil pan and inspect the bearings along with the oil pump. It turns out the relief valve was not seating well in oil pressure regulator and the bronze bearings (or bushings) within the oil pump were extremely tight. So we reseated the relief valve with some valve grinding compound, added a shim behind the spring and reamed the bushings for the oil pump gear shaft.

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More to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:21 pm

Since the oil pan was off at that time, I also decided to have an AN fitting welded in it for the turbo. I drilled a hole in the pan in the approximate location of the return line on the junkyard motor. The I took a #16 (1”) AN fitting and turned it in the lathe.

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Instead of mig welding it, I decided to have it tig welded by the guy who helped weld the fuel tanks...

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The oil pump and oil pan were reinstalled and I put a cap on the #16 line for the time being. Fortunately this corrected the oil pressure issue we were having.

More to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:22 pm

Fast forward to this past September... Harford is usually our last show for the season so since that was over I was starting to think about my ‘winter’ projects. The Cummins swap was still in the back of my mind for the 155W but I really wanted to work on my Dad’s truck and install the turbo. So I dug out all of the parts I had collected and started working on the studs in the exhaust manifold. Of course one of them broke when I removed the old turbo in the junkyard. The others looked pretty thin so sure enough 2 came out with some heat but I broke the third off. At least we only had 2 to drill!!!

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After the turbo stud wholes were cleaned an chased, I took it outside and quickly went over it with the wire brush...

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Then I moved on to the exhaust flange that connects to the turbo. Check out this welding project!!!

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I cut off the custom angle adapter and was able to chuck it in the lathe to cut the factory weld off (some tuff stuff...)

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After a quick sand blasting and wire brushing, it was ready to be reused...

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We really had a crazy fall with warmer than normal temps so I would up bringing the truck to work again in early November.

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That's it for now, more to follow later...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby crashcrawford » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Beautiful...
Chad Crawford

Brockway Model N358T-daily driver ;)
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby wingman » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:17 pm

You guys really do nice work !
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:03 pm

Thanks Chad & Wingman!

Right before the holiday we took the passenger side fender off and started sizing things up...

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I removed the old 4” exhaust, air inlet and then the exhaust manifold. Then we were able to install the new exhaust manifold and set the turbo on top of it. One if the things I was concerned about was the turbo hitting the supports rods so I was happy to see that everything cleared...

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I bead blasted the old Detroit paint off of the air inlet (which wears like iron!!!) and bolted it to the blower...

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Then I realized that the inlet of the turbo didn’t line up with the air inlet...

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At the point I decided to go back to the yard I bought the manifold from and see if the old turbo was still there. I was hoping that if I wasn’t able to buy it, I would at least be able to get the info off of the tag so I knew what I was looking for. 2 days later I made a trip back to the yard but it looked like the motor was gone, but sure enough here was the turbo laying there in the dirt...

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I was able to buy it reasonable so I went home with it. I figured that even if it was bad it would be good for a core, since core prices are usually $$$$. This one is a T18A40, Detroit # 5142193. Here are the two of them side by side, you can see the T18A40 is a time and a half larger than the TV6141...

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More to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:04 pm

I did set the T18A40 on the exhaust manifold and it lines right up with the air inlet (as it should...)

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I wasn’t able to find much Detroit turbo info online but I did find this page...

http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applica ... sel/TODOS/

It lists the T18A40 for 12V71 engines but doesn’t list the TV6141. I did make a few calls and talked to D&W who confirmed the TV6141 is for a 6L71T (and there is one on eBay list for a 671 also...) D&W also said the T18A40 is way too big for the 671 and it could ‘chuff...’

After some searching on line I was able to find an offset 3.5” connector from HPS. I felt this would solve my problem so I went ahead and ordered it along with (2) stainless clamps...

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I set the TV6141 back on the manifold and decided to start working on the exhaust. I went back and forth a number of times on this long before I started working on it. The original exhaust (non turbo) was 4” all the way. I bumped it up to 5” after the under carriage muffler. The turbo flange on the junkyard turbo was also 4” so I was thinking about leaving it at 4”. But then I read a post over on the Big Mack Truck forum about a guy with a 671T in a Hahn Fire Truck...

http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/index.php? ... ust-sayin/

And here are some pics of the turbo....

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More to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:05 pm

If you read the post, they discuss how they felt the truck was underpowered and after some discussion they decided to relocate the turbo and bump the exhaust up from 4 “ to 5” (they actually reference 3” to 4”, but if you look at the pics it sure looks like 4” to 5”...) So that pretty much made up my mind that I was going to 5” all the way.

I made a trip to the local Napa and picked up some mandrel bent 45’s along with a 4 to 5” reducer. I flipped the reducer and trim off most of the 4” and tacked it to the turbo flange...

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Then I trimmed a 45 OD to OD as tight as I could...

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And then tacked it to the flange...

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More to follow...
Last edited by oldspwr on Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:06 pm

Using several other 45’s I tried to route the exhaust the best I could down the outside of the frame (in the same location as the factory 4”) but could never come up with a solution I liked. So I walked away from it for a day or so and worked on other things. When I went back to it I would up adding an 8” straight section and then realized I needed a 30 deg section...

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So now I was getting somewhere! So I ordered the section from Napa and picked it up that night. I could have sectioned one of the extra 45’s I had, but that takes some skill to get a nice straight cut depending on the radius of the bend. If I decided to start making 5” exhausts for a living, I would probably make something like this :) ...

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But anyway, once I was has happy with the fit and routing, I drill a hole for a bung for a thermocouple. One of my Dad’s Christmas presents was an Isspro pyrometer...

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And here is my Dad learning how to take pics with an iPhone!!!

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That’s it for now, more to follow...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Junkmandan » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:07 pm

Tom---Following along like a good Detroit supporter would, my 1st thought was : Why did you use that old style hardware when you had all the latest and greatest up through '80s technology . Then I saw the alternator would have had to get relocated and that compounded your work potential . And the 2 turbos and related hardware are the difference in technology from the early '70s to maybe 15 years later. The hardware you're using is similar to what GM Diesel designed foruse in the 900 GMC back in 1957, and was common on Terex machines also .
I just brought a Brigadier back from eastern NY, 1983 vintage, with the same turbo hardware you show in the top picture, with 5" exhaust all the way. Newer machined turbo outlet flanges will accept 5" tubing ID and eliminate the flare.

I always like your step by step pictures with explanations. Thanks for keeping the memory alive !
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:40 pm

Hi Dan... I'm glad you responded to my post, it's always helpful to see what your thoughts are...

In saying that, what's your opinion on the turbo? Do you think I am in good shape with the TV6141?
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Junkmandan » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:57 pm

That's certainly the one I'd be installing .................newer technology. You won't have a comparison between the 2 turbos but you know all engine manufacturers have made those changes to improve lower RPM performance.

I'm somewhat surprised by D&Ws response, as a V12 is equipped with 2 turbos, one on each bank, just as if the engine was two 6 cylinder engines.
DDs field service data book shows many turbo models, depending on application, RPM range and injector size.

Some historical trivia on 6-71Ts since 1957.............
236HP@2100....630 lb.ft.@14-1600 with 60 MM injectors

Fast forward to 2-1972, what I call a re-release..........
262 HP@2100...725 lb.ft. @1600 with N75 injectors

1-79 rating for a 1950 rpm governed called the TT
230 HP@1950......853 lb.ft.@1200 with 7E75 injectors

10-84 rating for 6-71TA which had an internal water-air cooler on the block
290 HP@2100...810 lb.ft.@1200 with 7E75 injectors

Silver designation at 3-85, ratings same as above with 7E75s

Newest data I have showed up to 1996 with electronic unit injectors
330 HP @ 2100........no torque data shown
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Huskiedrive2 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:23 pm

Tom, the smaller of the two turbos, the one that doesn't line up, can you loosen the clamp that holds the intake snail housing and turn the housing in relation to the center casting to help line things up? I cant really tell by your pics which way the offset is. The smaller of the two turbos would be much better as it will spool up much faster, giving better performance without winding the snot out of your Detroit. You are wise to go with 5" pipe the entire length. 5" will reduce the back pressure and significantly improve the throttle response. Do you plan to change injectors? Now that you have extra air, you can burn more fuel, which makes more hp.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:46 am

Thanks for the historical data Dan, I appreciate it!

Stan, I believe the housing is rotated in the right direction. The center section of the turbo (where the oil feed and return go) is about 1/2" wider on the TV6141 than the T18A40. So it pushes the intake 1/2" towards the front of the truck. That's why they don't quite line up. I'll post pics later of how the offset adapter works. I found this pic a few years back and it "looks' like it may be the right air inlet...

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I blew the pic up and the part number is 8921270. Aren't these later Detroit part numbers? verses the 510 , 514, etc?

For the injectors, I have a set of rebuilt N70's to replace the N65's. I though N75's would be too big, but am open to suggestions...
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby stubnosebrock » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:01 am

Tom, I had N80s in my 671 natural. Really didnt smoke too bad. Im sure you can step up to at least that size with a turbo. I would think with N80's and a turbo you be around the 300hp mark.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Huskiedrive2 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:30 pm

Tom - to take full advantage of N75 or larger injectors, you would need to change to advance cam timing if your engine is not already set there. Do you have the blue data tag off of your original steel valve cover? It will call out STD or ADV at the marker for Timing ---- Your N70's will be fine if you have std timing. Anything larger may cause some ring fouling especially just bobtailing around. Changing the timing is done by removing the gear train cover (Flywheel housing) off of the back of the block and realigning the cam to idler gear teeth to the advance timing marks. Not a small job. The 800 series of part numbers did occur later in production, although it is hard to determine when, due to the number of times a part may have been superseded.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Junkmandan » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:48 pm

Tom's engine should already be advanced timed, because it is A natural aspirated engine that he's hanging the turbo hardware on . If you get too much boost in your airbox, the covers will start leaking anyway and there goes the pretty truck .

I'd use the N70s that you already have and enjoy the setup without going to a lot of trouble . You'll enjoy some quieting and be able to hear the compliments on the CB.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Huskiedrive2 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:27 pm

Up until about 1973 when some EPA laws changed, most natural aspirated 71 series Detroits were standard timed. Due to the age of the original engine in Tom's truck it could be either. Best to check the valve cover to be sure.
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby oldspwr » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:01 pm

Thanks Stan and Dan...

Our 671 is out of Sears Oil S34 so I believe its a 1974. When we got the truck there was a cast aluminum valve cover on it so the steel valve cover with the blue decal is long gone. Would the numbers on the pass side front of the block help?

Thanks again guys, it's nice to see the forum a little busy again!
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Re: E361T Progress - 671 to 671T

Postby Huskiedrive2 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:21 pm

Tom - unfortunately the engine number won't provide the options it was built with. Wayne Shaline has the sister truck to yours (S19, my old one) Next time I see him I'll get a look at it. He still has his old valve cover somewhere in storage I think. The ten ? Brockways that Sears Oil purchased would be the same build code for all of them.
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